I am so excited to bring you this episode. Brooke Novick is a licensed psychotherapist who is certified in psychedelic-assisted therapy. She is committed to helping others access their inherent worth, power, and beauty, so they may heal and open more fully to love.
✧ How to intentionally work with psychedelic medicine to heal and grow
✧ The benefits of working with psilocybin mushrooms
✧ Microdosing vs. full dose journeys
✧ Navigating intense emotions that may arise while working with the medicine
✧ What kinds of things you can do while microdosing
✧ Using your intuition to guide your experiences
✧ Using microsing to enhance your manifestation practice
✧ How to get started if you are called to this medicine
I am sooo grateful for you listening today. If this resonated with you, it would mean the world to me if you’d leave a review on itunes. Everyone’s invited to the afterparty which takes place every day on instagram @madison.arnholt so come hang out with us there.
If you’re really fired up about mindset, spiritual and personal development, click here to check out my coaching programs and courses.
Hello and welcome to the magnetical U podcast. I'm your host Madison cert I am a mindset energy coach here to help you feel your freakin best and manifest a life full of magic miracles and abundance. I know that whatever led you here did not happen by coincidence. So I am so excited and grateful to have you here. So let's let the magic begin. Hi, and welcome back to the magnetically you podcast. I have Brooke Novick with Axis Mundi here today to talk with us about mushrooms and micro dosing and also things so we're just gonna see where this conversation leads us. But thank you so much for being here. Brooke, I'm so excited to chat with you. Thank you for having me, Madison, it's an honor. Yay. Okay, so let's start with if you want to just share who you are, and what you guys what you guys do. Yeah, so I'm a psychedelic therapist, and I run access and do with my partner, Michael. So our goal is to really make intentional work with psychedelics accessible to all who feel called to it. And so for a lot of people this work can be, you know, not affordable, or even if you can afford it, and maybe hard to locate an underground ceremony of some sort. And so we really wanted to make this work very easily accessible, and affordable. And so that's our our goal, and we have online courses, and you know, lots of ways to support you in that. But that's, that's what we do. I love it amazing. And what what led you into this work and feel free to share like as much or as little as you want to get into? Yeah, so where to begin, I I started experimenting with psychedelics, when I was a teenager, about 16 years old, it was very recreational, you know, just exploring, experimenting. And I did that for a long time. And, you know, here and there. And those experiences were very important for for me and my, my own evolution. But while I was using psychedelics, recreationally, I had a lot of symptoms that were progressively just getting worse. And really, you know, the, the medicine usage wasn't really supporting the symptoms at all. And so as soon as I began arriving at this work with intention to heal and grow, everything started to change immediately. So I was struggling really badly with bulimia for like 10 years, and pretty severe social anxiety. And so these symptoms were just getting worse and worse and worse, even though I was using psychedelics recreationally. But as soon as I began arriving at this work with intention, everything changed immediately. And that, you know, that's not to say that I just recovered and yield and everything was great. What I mean by immediately is that, as soon as I began working with psychedelics, I began changing my own life. So I told my whole family, I had an eating disorder, no one knew it was my big secret. I was very much living a double life, you know, lying a lot about it. And so I told told my, my whole family, I told my close friends what was going on. And I checked myself into treatment. That happened immediately following this intentional medicine work. And then from there, you know, over many years, I worked on my healing and growth every day, you know, it's a, it's a process. Healing really requires our devotion and commitment. So it's not like the medicine did it for me. But without the medicine, I believe I never would have gotten into recovery because there was way too much shame, way too much denial, and fear, stopping me from doing what I had to do. So as a therapist, I became very passionate about this work, because I saw how it it supported me in my own life so greatly. And so I decided to get certified in psychedelic therapy. And then I began working for a psilocybin retreat center. And it's sort of just snowballed from there. But as a therapist, I just see how this work and support people with their healings so greatly so deeply. And for me, it you know, I always say it should be illegal for this not for this work not to be available for people, because it can help so much as a tool. So that's how we ended up here. Yeah, yeah. I love that so much. I feel like I have Yeah, just so many, so many questions. And it really is so powerful to hear your story. So thank you for sharing that. And I found that it's like, the, like mushrooms really like my experience with them has been that they really help you see yourself in truth, even if it's not really a truth your mind wants to see. But it's you're able to see it in a way where it's like it's compassionate like the first time I did. I had been micro dosing for a few months. And then I felt a calling to take a larger dose probably I don't know, a few months ago, and it was just like the one of the most like incredibly profound experiences of just seeing myself and my life so clearly and where I was like living out of alignment with my truth, and it just was like, a shattering of so many masks I had been like, wearing and it was just like a boom, boom, boom, boom, boom of like a like a, I don't know, just like a rapid realignment. So that was my like, first deep experience with it. Have you found that for most people or for yourself that it's kind of like that similar, like, sense of connecting deeper with yourself and seeing yourself and your truth. I love how you phrase that rapid realignment, yes. Right? It's like when we're working with the medicine, all our defenses that are typically running all the time every day, just dissolve for you know, a number of hours. And we're just sitting with ourselves in truth. And so anything like you said, like your mind just doesn't want to see in daily life. Like it will come up, you know, so so we can see it and heal. So it's a very powerful experience for sure. Yeah, rapid realignment. Maybe that's the name of your next call. Yeah. I like that to just like, yeah, came out. So cool. So what, what is the purpose and working with psychedelics? Like, what is in it for? What is the gift of the medicine? I guess you could say, besides, obviously, what we just talked about? Yeah, beautiful question, the gift of the medicine, I would say is to return to your truth, return to love, connect more deeply with the love that you are, and the love that exists all around you, you know, in, in, in every day, to go beyond all the symptoms of the mind and the body, and really connect more deeply to what's underneath them. And what's being asked for greater attention, acknowledgement, healing and love. I feel like intentional work with psychedelics allows us to live the life our souls are here for, to really live the life our souls are desiring to live. But so often the mind the ego can just block it and get in the way. And the medicine just allows us to live as who we truly are. I love it. And I feel that so deeply. It's like there's such a shattering of illusion and like just fear and false like representations of who we are. So I love that. So what what shifted for you on your journey. I know you had used psychedelics recreationally, and then you started using them intentionally did you have a moment of realization where you're like, Oh, I actually want to bring some intention into this or what kind of sparked on thought transition into working with it more intentionally. So I actually had taken some mushrooms one evening, it wasn't a full ceremony, but I was with a dear friend. And we, we were not being like fully recreational about it. But we were also like, at, at, like a gathering of some sort outside. And I took the medicine and the medicine I kept hearing it tells me to go work with Ayahuasca. And when the mushrooms tell you to do something, you listen. So, you know, what do you know and iOS circle came right into my lap that evening, actually, and I am right of course, I had never known where to go work with Ayahuasca wasn't something I was connected with yet. This was like eight years ago, a little more, I think, at this point. And I had no idea how to access this medicine and I didn't even really know people who were working with it yet. And so a circle came right to me. And then that summer, I worked with I went I was a ceremony four times. I was just feeling such a deep call to it. And I should say even before I had this experience with the mushrooms, I was really feeling called to work with Iosco, but I didn't know how to or where to or you know what it even really meant to work with that Oscar, but I felt such a deep calling to it in my soul. And so yeah, then I found the ceremony, I went to for ceremonies. And right after that I checked myself into treatment. So you found like, you kind of like naturally, like, flowed into more intentional practices? And then you're like, oh, maybe, maybe I'll stay with this. What does it what does it mean to be intentional with with it. So, for me, being intentional with medicine really means, you know, arriving at this work with an intention. And arriving at this work with gratitude, respect, and, and really being committed to, to work with the medicine. So then, being intentional, while you're working with the medicine means being present with the experience, being present with whatever is arising while you're working with the medicine. So not being distracted. You know, recreational use is totally okay, as long as it's safe, and you're being respectful towards yourself. But recreational use is typically at a concert or festival or with friends. And so intentional work, you're not distracted, you're not socializing, you're very internal, you're very present with your experience, and whatever is arising. And that might mean that something challenging or uncomfortable is arising, but you're not distracting from it, you're not running from it, you're really present. Because you understand that anything that arises when you're intentionally working with medicine is there to support your healing. And then on the other end of the journey, is the integration. So when you're working intentionally, it's really important to process the experience, integrate it, because without that, it can be very confusing. And it can be challenging to even know what just happened, and how is that supposed to help me? And so it really takes time, and space to process and integrate the experience so that you can implement the wisdom of this experience into your daily life. I love that. And I think, yeah, it's so important to it sounds like it's really just going into the experience before, during and after with presence with consciousness with, like, tuning into yourself. Exactly. Otherwise, it's like, I think you could miss the, the gifts, you could miss the realization too, because you're not present to it. So I think, yeah, that makes so much sense. Absolutely. Yeah, you know, these medicines, there's a reason people have been working and praying with these medicines for 1000s of years, because they really support our healing and growth. And so the point of work for them is for everything to come up, that we don't normally connect with, like we were saying, so we can be with it and you know, heal and grow. And so if we're in a setting that really isn't conducive to being with what's arising, it, that's when you hear all the stories that we've all heard about psychedelics, you know that, it because if you're in a space, that doesn't allow for you to be with what's arising, then you have to push it down. And that can be really uncomfortable. So yeah, intentional work, you're just being present with whatever is arising. Okay, so let's speaking of what being present with what's arising, I noticed when I first started micro dosing that like, very often, like most of the times that I did it, I would experience a lot of shit coming up. And it was like, not even necessarily like conscious worries, or anxieties or thoughts. It was just like energy and emotions, like coming forward, even like feelings of like depression, or like, high irritation and like feelings of like, anger. And it was, I was like, what is happening? Like, is this normal? And it sounds like, it sounds like yes, it is. What is like, what would you say for someone who is experiencing that where it's like, kind of like dredging up some old energy and emotions? Like, how do we navigate that? Yeah, it's such a beautiful point. Because the way you know, these medicines, and this work is getting a lot more popular now. And people are hearing like, oh, my gosh, this is just gonna cure me, and it's gonna be great. And then I'm gonna move on. And that's absolutely not what happens. I know, I think a lot of what you hear is like, Oh, you just feel so light and your heart is so open. And I think there's so much of that. But I'm like, Well, I don't know about you. But for me, there's some like dredging up of some stuff. And if I have to, like look at it and sit with it, absolutely. So, right, the medicine works in whatever way we need it to work. And that means that every time you microdose it's going to be different, and the medicine will meet you to where you are that day, and it will provide you the experience you need that day. So one day, it might be, you know, you're dancing outside and feeling really good and feeling really connected to nature. And the next time you microdose, you might have to feel some feelings that have been suppressed or repressed. And that might look like being really angry, having a ton of rage come up being really sad and crying, or realizing that there are certain conversations that need to be had with loved ones, you know, certain boundaries that need to be set. So this, this could mean a lot of hard work and a lot coming to the surface that your ego would rather have nothing to do with. But you can trust 100% That, that it's coming up for your own healing. And so, yes, having days where you're really angry, while you're microdosing may be very uncomfortable. But it's so so so good for you so good. As long as you know, you're letting it come up and feeling it, which you did. Yeah, yeah, I even had like some of that come up today. And I was like, I don't want to feel grumpy today. Because I have this interview. Like, I want to feel good. And I want to feel like excited for this. And I was like, just noticing that coming up this morning. And I was like, also noticing my mind being like, Let's go somewhere. Let's do something, let's distract, let's not go there. And as soon as I like took the time to like, slow down, I took about I just like laid there and breathed and felt into like what is happening inside my body and just breathe. It's like this, like, softness like came over me. And it's like a dissipated. And it's like, it just wanted to be like felt and experienced. And like I don't know what it was. But I don't need to like mentally know, in my mind, like what was going on. But it's like there was something that wanted to be looked at that wanted to be felt in as soon as I gave it my conscious like presence and awareness without needing to, like, run from it or get rid of it. It just naturally. Like dissipated. So, yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful, that those moments are profound. You know, like, that's where healing happens. It it may seem like Oh, whatever. Okay, so I did that. And then I move on. It's like, oh, my gosh, you had a huge healing moment, that huge healing morning today. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And I can totally relate. totally relate. Well, thank you for reflecting back to me that it was a huge healing moment. I'm like, Okay, that's good. So for someone who doesn't know or isn't familiar with this work, or with psychedelics, or psilocybin mushrooms, what is micro dosing? So micro dosing is when you take a sub perceptual amount of any psychedelic medicine, which means you know, a tiny, tiny amount so that you're not feeling any psychedelic effects, really, and you work with it in a more consistent manner. So instead of just taking it once, you're taking it typically on some sort of schedule, so maybe every other day for two months, or every two days for six weeks, you know, there's many different protocols, but it really means working with a very, very tiny amount of medicine in a consistent way for a period of time. And how would someone decide what protocol is most aligned for them. So there's so many different protocols, there are a few that are the most popular, but Michael and I in our courses, and whenever we're working with people, we always recommend that you allow your intuition to guide you. So you can find a structure that feels like it resonates. But if you're supposed to microdose today, and you wake up and you're like, you know what, it just does not feel right to microdose. Today, we want you to honor that. The most important thing with micro dosing is consistency, because the results of micro dosing are cumulative. So it you know, if you micro dose once, and you're like, Well, that didn't do anything, this is dumb, like no, no, you've got it, you gotta give me more time, because the results are cumulative. But like let your intuition guide you to, you know, when to take it while also having like a loose you know, protocol as well. Yeah, I love that you brought in intuition because I think that's so important. And that's what my off my work. I love that. So, I'm curious and like I've I've never really had any, I don't know formal education, you could say around like microdosing and mushrooms. I just kind of like followed my intuition and was called to it and have been following my intuition along the journey, but I'm curious from your perspective, having you know, so much experience with yourself and your clients. Like, is there certain activities to avoid or to do when you you do when you are micro dosing like, is that a better day to meditate and journal or like be with yourself? Or is it also okay to just like go out and work or go to a coffee shop or do like normal life things like what do you suggest as far as like the intentional practice of once you've taken? Taken it? Yeah. So when you're first starting your protocol, we always recommend not having anything planned that day, you don't want to drive you don't want to go to work, just because the first time or two that you're micro dosing, you're still learning, how do you know what dose is appropriate for you and how sensitive you are? I definitely had to learn that my first time and yeah, I had plans, it would not have been a good. Yes, I can. Right. So it's like, even if you've worked with the medicine before every batch of medicine is different. And every day is different. So depending on, you know, where you're at, the medicine will affect us differently each time we work with it while we're micro dosing. So in the beginning, when you're finding your sweet spot, which is really the dose you're going to continue working with, don't have any commitments from the beginning, just in case it ends up being a bit stronger than you had anticipated. Once you've found the dose that feels right for you, and it's just so so sub perceptual, then you can drive you can go to work, you can go about your normal daily life, which really is the point of micro dosing, it's supposed to support you in your daily life. And so, you know, if it's, if the medicines feeling really strong, and you're having to like cancel things consistently, then the dose is not, it's not in the right spot. That being said, in order to make your practice intentional, we really always encourage you to bring daily rituals or practices around your protocol. So that could be a meditation, journaling, prayer, stretching, you know, whatever feels good for you. Because it's so important when you're working with medicine, even in really small doses, just to give yourself some space each day to connect with yourself and be present with yourself. Because I've found and I know other people find, when you microdose, and you're really busy. And you just like get up and take the medicine and go right into your day. And you don't make any time for yourself. You can forget that you microdose you're like, Whoa, yeah, that I've totally forgot. But if you're conscious about it, and you set an intention, and you you know, meditate in the morning, that will really support you in being present with yourself and your experience throughout the rest of the day. Is there a certain time of day you recommend to take a medicine? Yeah. So a lot of people prefer the morning because then you have the whole day ahead of you with the medicine. But again, you know, like intuition is so big here. So let your intuition guide you. Sometimes I will take it in the early afternoon if I feel called. But yeah, it's really up to you. If you get later in the day. It's funny because some people find later in the day, affects their sleep in a negative way, and they can't sleep as well. And then some people who have insomnia or struggle with sleep issues, find that taking the medicine at night helps them sleep. So everyone is so different. There's never in medicine in medicine work like one answer, you know, really do what works for you. But mourning is the most popular one. Isn't that funny? I don't think it's a coincidence that it expresses differently for everyone, because then it's almost like you're you have to follow your own intuition. Because your experience is completely unique to you. So I love that. phrase that perfectly. Exactly. Yeah. So cool. So when when would you when would someone want to microdose versus taking like a larger dose where they are going to have more of that like psychedelic experience like for for me, I know when I like kind of was led to my first psychedelic experience. I think that was in April, like I just, I had felt a calling to the micro dosing did that for a few months. And for a long time. It was No, I'm afraid. No, I'm afraid No, I'm afraid of a larger dose. So I just like honored that. And then all of a sudden it was like, I'm ready and I feel safe. And I feel grounded. Let's go. There was just like a clear like moment of like, it's time and it just kind of like flowed so naturally and intuitively but I'm wondering if there's any like any like signs or any particular scenarios where it would be better for micro dosing or better for a larger dose or is it ultimately just go with where your intuition is calling you? I love that you're awesome. At least so connected to your intuition. And that's a perfect example of letting your intuition guide you in medicine work. So no one can tell you when it's time and what to do and what to do first. No one can tell you everyone is so different. And so you, you know, it's aligned for you to work with medicine, when you feel personally called to it. Because this work is getting so popular. A lot of people are like, oh, I'll just, you know, I'll try this, maybe this isn't the answer. It's like, Well, are you feeling called to it, because if you're not, I wouldn't work with the medicine. If you're feeling called to it, go for it. And whether you start with micro dosing or a full dose journey, let your intuition guide you, you will know just like the experience you had, for me, I will start dreaming about it. When it's time to work with medicine. I'll just start strongly feeling called like, Okay, it's time to go to ceremony. But there have been times where I haven't worked with the medicine for two years. And then there have been times where I've sat three times in one week, you know, so there is no rhyme or reason, like your Spirit will guide you. Yeah, you know what I just remembered. So I was on the way to Charlottesville this like weekend, I was first being called to take a larger dose and I still had it like a tiny tinge of like, oh, I don't know, I've never done this, like what's gonna happen, you know, and I just was like, universe show me three mushroom science if I meant to do this. And one of them was there was literally much like a mushroom like art on a U haul truck. On the drive there on a U haul truck. When I got the Airbnb, we stayed up in the backyard, they had these like, I don't know, like art sculptures that were mushrooms. And then there was like one other one. So it was just like, I already, like felt my intuition within me. And then it was like, I just so clearly got not just one sign, but like three crystal clear signs where it was like, okay, like, clearly this is like a deep, like calling. And I love that. I love that. That. Uh, you ha That's amazing. Yeah, so you can ask for signs, you may start hearing about it everywhere. You know, we're seeing mushrooms everywhere. So I love that. So if someone is starting to feel that, that calling or that urge, where would you recommend that they start? So, you know, if if you're starting to feel it, but you're still like, is this right? For me, we have this free offering on our website, you can just go right there. And it's a guided meditation and some journal questions. And it will help you really tune into is this the right time for me to begin working intentionally with medicine? And then if it is, you know, see what's calling to you? Are you feeling called to microdose? Or do a full dose journey? Are you feeling called to you know, if it's a full dose journey? Are you feeling called to do it at home with someone sitting with you, who you trust? Are you feeling called to go on a retreat? Or you know, go to like, Medicine Center and another country? So there's so many different ways you can work with medicine? There, you know, no way is better than another just do what's filling, right for you? Just to make sure it's safe. That's that's always the main thing. But yeah, let your intuition guide you. Yeah, I love that. It's so like, I don't know, I was just like thinking it's so like, circular in the sense that it's like your intuition guides you to it, and then it guides you more deeper into your intuition. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Exactly. Yeah, I am loving this conversation. What else did I want to ask? So I know you guys have shared about micro dosing and connecting that with manifestation. So can you talk a little bit about, about that how we can use like, microdosing in our manifestation like process? Yes. So, you know, both medicine, work and manifestation are so sacred and can be so sacred. They're not always in how people are doing them. That's okay. But when I put them together, I really wanted to make sure that the practice was really sacred. And, you know, and like supportive to manifest a life in alignment with what your soul is desiring. And so, Michael, this was actually like his download and his idea and I was hesitant at first I was like, I don't know. And then we started practicing it and I was like, Oh, my goodness, this is amazing. We've got it. We've got to share this with people. So all it really likes all microdose manifestation is it's just a practice. And so while you are micro dosing, or while you're moving through a micro dosing protocol, we've designed a guided meditation and some journal questions for you to support your manifest. accession process. So you know, a lot of it is just like, Matt, like manifesting in the quantum field and just being present with what you're calling in and feeling the feelings associated with it and being really, you know, clear on how you want to feel, you don't even have to know exactly what it looks like, but how do you want to feel, and you know, whether you're manifesting healing or, or certain feelings, or certain experiences or outcomes, like this practice can really be supportive for you. Cool, I love that. Now, I know that like psilocybin mushrooms can enhance I think it's the neuroplasticity, and the brain. Do you know about that? And if you do, can we talk a little bit about that? Yeah, so working with psychedelics does increase neuroplasticity. And so what that means is that your brain, while you're working with the medicine, is creating new neural pathways, new neural connections, and which is profound, that's what antidepressants do or help us do. But this is a natural way to do it. And so, you know, when we have symptoms, like panic attacks, or OCD or depression, the neural networks and connections in our brain associated with those symptoms are really strong, and really deep. And so it's like, very easy to keep running through these same symptoms, because they're so familiar. And our brain has, like, you know, gone through those patterns millions and millions of times. So, the medicine can help us create new connections, like new ways of doing things. So you're not on the same like pattern or loop one spot on the on the pattern might like veer off and then you go into a totally new experience is kind of what I'm how I'm interpreting it. Oh, totally. That's the perfect languaging for it. Yeah, like you can all of a sudden have like a new way of perceiving something. Or, like, you know, a new solution can come to mind that you never even thought of before. Or maybe you're just like, way more willing and open to do what needs to be done to heal because now you're motivated and it's possible. So, yeah, it's it's profound, you know, meditation promotes neuroplasticity, as well. So it's really like people, people say, like, oh, you know, you're an adult, you can't change like, you're in your same patterns. Like, that's not true. You can absolutely change. It just takes like really being present with ourselves. Yeah, 100%. And something that's been really, I don't know, just like prevalent my consciousness recently is that, like, who we think we are, is really just like a conglomeration of past experiences and emotions. And now I forget where I was going with that train of thought, Well, what were you saying? What did you just say? Like, totally lost it? No, no, I love that. Because I was saying, like, some people think if you're over a certain age, it's hard to change, or you can't change. But we really can't. Oh, yeah, we it's like we are who we think we are based on our like past and our experiences until we like, come into presence and realize like, we are who we are in this moment. And then the next one, we are who we are in that moment. And it doesn't have to be so attached to who we were one second ago or last year or two years ago, or five years ago. So I love that I love how you put words to things. Sometimes it can be hard for me to put chords. That's it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, is there anything else that's on your hard to share that we didn't talk about? I guess I would just say, if you're feeling called to this work, and the people in your life are not approving of it or accepting of it. That's okay. They don't have to understand not everyone's going to understand. But if you're feeling this deep soul calling to this work, go deeper, explore it, just be safe. You know, that's all but but there's still a lot of people who don't understand this work and may have judgments about it. And that's okay. Because you don't need their approval to go do what feels right for you. Hell, yes. What a beautiful note to end on. I love that. And I think that applies to Yeah, so much. I mean, everything really, it's just like, wow, like, can we release the need for someone else to understand our choices? Yeah. And like we don't even always see need to fully understand ourselves. I feel like, I don't know. I've just been like, really just realizing, I'm like, I don't actually know anything. There's so much more to what's going on in this life than I could possibly get begin to mentally conceptualize or understand. Right. Anyways, before we take us too far off into the clouds, where can people find you and work with you guys? So we're on Instagram granted at Access Monday ceremony, and that our website is access Monday ceremony.com. Amazing. Thank you. We will have that all linked in the show notes. And yeah, thank you so much for being here. This was, yeah, a really exciting conversation. And I'm so excited for someone who is feeling the calling to this work to get to hear this episode and learn more about it. Because I think it's it's so powerful and amazing. And I love that a huge goal of yours is to allow people the access to the experience, and I just think that's so powerful. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor. Thank you so much for listening to the magnetically your podcast. If this episode served you I ask that you share it with someone who could make a difference for or share it on social media and tag me at magnetically you. Make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss any of the magic. And it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review on iTunes. Thank you so so much from the bottom of my heart for being here. And I will see you in the next episode.
This Deep Healing Meditation will help you release emotions and negative energy stuck in the body so you can feel calm, grounded and present.